Tim Hardaway

[R0cketer]

I still adhere to the basic idea that IF people hate gays because it is a sin, then they should hate every person that sins, not pick and choose their respective sins. You can't say I hate homosexuals because I pay attention to the Bible and it says its a sin and not hate all other sins. Doing so is hypocritical. Not to mention you aren't to hate the sinners but the sin.

Sorry guys, I would say a high ninetys percent of people who hate homosexuals, do so for the same reason that people are racially bigots.

[sup-rbeast]

My point exactly. And, anything can be learned but it is up to the individual on whether or not to implement or incorporate what is learned into his or her life. If someone grows up watchin dad beat up mom daily and thinks that is an Ok way to live his life, does that make it a valid way to live. And when he goes to jail do they say well it is ingrained in him, so we won't bother to prosecute him for his choice to beat down his wife?.. Plain and simple...the government should not use discrimination laws to advocate a lifestyle that is a matter of one's choice.

again, i dont understand why the burden of proof rests on me here. where is your proof its a choice, other than they "do" homosexuality?

It's easy to dogmatically think act is chosen, but thats not necessarily the case. Again, some people are determinists...they think that we're living in a great big Skinnarian box and the physical states of the world "determine" our actions...thus the term determinism (i dont adhere to this btw, b/c it makes punishment irrational).

We do have agency, but we are also under deterministic constraints at times. I believe homosexuality (and heterosexuality for that matter) are largely, if not wholly deterministic. You dont. i mean, we disagree on the premise. Its not personal, its just the facts of the matter.

In response to someone else: I took Prof Vasilesque's Intro Psych class at UVa-Wise when i was dual enrolled there (this doesnt make me an expert btw) but if i remember correctly, i thought we discussed the lack of choice behind homosexulaity. maybe my memory is failing me. i dunno. again, im not a psychiatrist/dr/geneticist.

but its funny, im criticized...."YOU GOT NO PROOF". but all someone has to do is say, "oh, studies show its a choice". can we have some links?

and furhter, someone said that it was a learned behavior. assume this is true (a BIG assumption), does that make it a choice. if you are taught by ur parents from day 1, one thing or another, do you really have a choice about it? what 2 year old has the cognative faculties to say "NO MOM. YOURE WRONG?" jsut b/c its leanred doesnt mean its, a priori, a choice. Furthrmore, whose doeing the teaching, if there is learning.??? I dont know of many families that teach their kid to be homosexual. Maybe you couold argue about adoption into homosexual homes teaching....but i know a lot of homosexuals that grew up in convential homes (after all, how did they get there???)

Anyway, ive tried to keep this respectful. Most of yall have too, which has been nice. I've actually enjoyed this. It's not every day i get to make ACTUAL arguments, not just yelling arguments.

I'm heading out for the evening, so i really can defend my view anymore for the time. If u disagree, at least be reasonable, dont attack ME personally (an arguement, ad hominem, for the philo geeks out there) b/c thats a cop out. attack the premises, or give me further reason/evidence to believe urs.

Good night all! Send me a PM if you so desire.

I have often wondered this, if one is born homosexual and they may be for all I know. Can one be born racist? COuld someone be genetically born to hate others? If one can be born to be attracted to the same sex, can someone be born to hate as well? I know Gene theory is a touchy subject with people and all, I feel its all a choice. You choose to be gay, I choose to be hetrosexual, morons (in my opinion) choose to be racist, bigots, sexists etc. But if you or anyone believes someone can be born to be drawn towards someone, could or can someone be born to hate. To me its one in the same. As for what Hardaway said, its his opinion, he has every right to say that, its not very smart on countless levels, but I do not like seat belts either.

[R0cketer]

I always have a problem with genetics coming in on what appears to be a choice. It really opens a can of worms IMO. I mean if its genetic for someone to want someone of the same sex, what would stop it from being genetic for someone to want sheep, or something else? I mean its obvious that its not a dominant genetic trait, or else the species wouldn't continue. If it was something born, why wouldn't people come out of the womb being gay, if its some latent genetic thing, what would be the trigger, puberty? It doesn't explain why people who are later in their lives, sometimes married or been married, suddenly realize 'oh wait i'm gay'.

Its possible that there is some genetic issues, some chemical imbalances or something that help precipitate it, but need some lifestyle or upbringing triggers to enduce it. I don't believe that someone is born gay, anymore than I believe someone is born to be good, or born to be a murderer but hey what do I know [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Biggin]

ohh yess this is what i like

but this debate is not fair, because its already won, because you cannot prove your God, he is not MY GOD, you think he is my God, you can't prove that you are right, so you CANNOT POSSIBLY EXPECT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE TO ADAPT AND FOLLOW YOUR BELIFES WITHOUT ANY, NONE, ABSOLUTLEY ZERO INCLINATION OF TRUTH, BECAUSE THERE IS NO INCLINATION OF TRUTH.

so there ya go, [censored]

Let me put it in harsher terms.
(WARNING)-not going to be nice, or even clean, so if you don't want to hear MY opinions on YOUR religion, dont read this part)


its a [censored] farce! its that simple. you put your beliefs in nothing but absolute blind faith. im not saying you shouldnt do that, its your choice, BUT DONT MAKE ME HAVE TO LIVE WITH YOUR CHOICE, seeing as how I didnt choose to believe what you believe. this isnt about gays anymore, its about the hypocracy of religion in this country. we condemn others, yet you want to be held unaccountable? this society (we) should not have to be form-fit around YOUR religious views.

and dont you get it in your head that the nations moral standards and your religion are one in the same, because its false, simple. society's morals have flexed over the years, ITS CALLED CHANGE. society's morals have adapted, became more practical, while your moral code has not changed in 2000 years.

in conclusion-
i dont care if you're gay, thats the whole [censored] point. you can be gay, you can be a transsexual, you can [censored] old ladies for all i care, it doesnt matter to me, you are not forcing me to be gay, or [censored] an old chick, so its okay.

i dont like the thought of having my country ruled based on a fiction book with mythical characters. it shouldnt be.

this is the land of the free morons, you are free to practice whatever you want, but just because 90% of the u.s. was christian in the 18th century when they wrote our governing documents ,doesnt mean that three centuries later, when we claim to be the land of the independent and free, we can still judge and hold everyone to those beliefs.

simple as that.

[Ironlung]

I agree with the majority of that. [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beer1.gif[/img]

[Squirell]

holy cow. someone please put an end to it. haha.

[imported_biggamesjames]

If you don't like living in a country which recognizes it's sovereignty is granted by God and upholds the belief that we are one nation under God then the great thing about the freedom thus granted to it's citizens is you also have the freedom to move to a purely secular country that does not recognize it's sovereignty as a gift from God....like say Russia.

[sup-rbeast]

The problem with your argument is that religion is based on faith but our laws are based on facts. Furthermore, I don't want to live in a country where the minority rules everyone. That's how we got george w. bush the first time he was elected. You sit there and take up for gays because of their choice to be gay and you slam folks for choosing to go to church....kinda hypocritical i think.